Just as a measuring stick, it takes me (reading aloud at full speed, as in my Thinking Biblically Commentaries) about 15 minutes to cover 2500 words. My presentation for the ‘Apology to the World’ conference was around 9500 words and took 58 minutes to read.

This post is only 1000 words less than that.

I only type up stuff this long when it’s absolutely necessary. I usually try to keep responses to things at 1000 words or less.

Well, last week or so, I posted a thread on The 5th Quarter which was simply an article from Greg Koukl from Stand To Reason. At first, no real responses to the thread.

My beloved sister in Florida (Tracey – mentioned her in another blog entry on here) chimed in. I love Tracey, but she has a tendency to skim, form and opinion and operate from there without reading or dealing with what has been said in detail. At least that’s how it’s been in relation to me when discussing Biblical issues. I’m thinking that I need to actually talk with her. The internet does have a tendency to give folks the wrong impression during some discussions, so people see pride where there is none, harshness where a loving tone was used, and so forth.

Anyway, a bit of a disagreement ensued and a few more folks chimed in. Some folks (Tracey being one of them) made two very fatal errors – one, they equated ‘God speaking to them’ with any subjective experience (dreams, visions, voices) and two, they equated these as being equal with scripture.

Thus, the necessary ‘sola scriptura megapost’ that follows below. I even touched the issue of Biblical interpretation (talking about redemptive history, salvation history and progressive revelation) and included an extended (my first) exegesis of 2 Timothy 3:14-17. If there ever was an issue that needs to be defended among Christians NOW more than ever, this is one of them. The reformation is slowly getting eclipsed in much of today’s popular evangelical culture and sound theology is getting harder and harder to find. But as long as I have breath in me and God gives me strength, I won’t stop writing.

You can read the entire thread (including responses to this post below) by clicking on the link above.

==========================================================

Finally getting a chance to fully respond to this thread.

I’ve sat on it for a week, prayed and carefully thought about what I wanted to say in response to many of the issues raised here. Matter of fact, this is my second day typing this up because so many issues need to be covered here. Yes, it’s a long post (even I don’t feel like reading it to proof it), but it is necessary. And no, there is no ‘cliff notes’ version. Some things just have to be done the ‘long way’ and the extra energy, time and such are required. There’s no ‘cliff notes’ version of band camp, nor a ‘cliff notes’ way to play First Suite in Eb. You have to put the work in. If this is true for music and things which this site is dedicated to, how much more the things of God ?

A lot of this will alternate back and forth between WhiteMike and mellowone as far as responses and explanations. I hope you both take this in love (that is the spirit in which I type) and know that as your brother in Christ, I love you both and seek to impart to you some words of both correction and encouragement so that you may become more adept at handling the word of God properly and both knowing and living the truth of the gospel. And yes, I’m asking that you do not ‘skim’ this, but read it all. Take a few days if need be. I don’t think this thread will close anytime soon.

With that, open your Bibles and let’s begin.

White Mike wrote:

TheBionicSIGMA wrote:

Everything God needs to say to humanity is located here.I prefer the ESV, but the NIV is good too.

then why do you post articles written by other people? Why not just post God written scripture and let it speak for itself since

Actually, I do. The scriptures are clear on the main things they teach. They literally do ‘speak for themselves’ on issues such as salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone apart from works, God’s eternal nature, plurality (Triune) and unity and a host of other issues.

But the reason I also post articles by good, solid teachers is because the church doesn’t exist in 2005 alone. Hebrews 11 speaks of a ‘great cloud of witnesses’. Those ‘witnesses’ are saints of the past, whose example and (in some cases) teaching we can read and learn from. The American Church tendency to isolate itself from 2000 years of church history and teaching is a huge problem. It manifests itself in the multiplicitous ‘one-church-denominations’ (aka non-denominational churches) that have been popping up all over the place since the mid-90’s.

We spend plenty of time (we being black folk) on learning what our anscestors according to the flesh and ethnicity believed and endured, yet what can you tell me about the debate between Pelagius and Augustine ? What was the issue and why is it relevant today ? What can you tell me about your the Synod of Dordt, a guy named Jacob Arminius, Martin Luther, John Wesley, John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli ? A lot of the questions that folk have – from the issue of free will vs God’s Sovereignty to what constitutes the final infallible authority for men have been dealt with at length by folks who studied the scriptures and wrote down for future generations what they found. So, for example, the whole issue of modalism/oneness view of God vs the Trinitarian view – isn’t new. The Assemblies of God expelled a ton of folks in the early 1900’s for this problem. But 1900 years before at the end of the 2nd Century, folks dealt with this same issue – from the scriptures. In the spring of 320 A.D. over 100 pastors from every region of the visible church came together and discussed the issue of whether Arius of Alexandria and his followers were teaching the truth regarding the Trinity or not. After studying the scriptures, they released their findings as the Canons of Nicea in 325, officially condemning Arianism. Today, Arianism survives in the teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and most believers don’t even know enough of their Bible, let alone enough on church history, to adequately defend the truth of the Deity of Christ from scripture against your average JW.

There are so many riches that folks miss out on in neglecting the ‘theology of a bunch of dead guys’. And I know their churches aren’t teaching them (folk on here too) because I see statements like the one Common Sense02 posted a while back regarding what ‘Calvanists’ (misspelled on purpose) believe in the ‘what irks you’ thread (and I’m using him as an example – nothing personal intended here and it’s not intended as a ‘slam’ of any sort).

So I’ll cite from Spurgeon or I’ll direct you to a file by someone who’s solid on a particular issue. The church and the believer don’t exist as islands. The church is a BODY – not just a few random fingers and toes. And that (1 Cor. 12) doesn’t just refer to the local body, but the entire body of Christ.

See, I’m a Christian first, THEN a black man. My first family is composed of the universal church – believers from EVERY time period who have lived and who WILL live – because we all share a common father – Abraham (see Romans 9 on who the true children of Abraham were and see Romans 2 for who a true Jew is). As a child of the promise, I and every other believer in Christ have an inseperable bond. So I have a responsibility to learn about the rest of my family – and Hebrews 11 (again) points to many other folks not mentioned in scripture and the hardships they endured both waiting for the promise of the Messiah and those who suffered immediately afterward in the early days of the NT church.

You want to read something inspiring ? Look up the Martyrdom of Polycarp. Learn who discipled him. And who discipled him. (if you go find out, you’ll realize why I said this).

And please do not dismiss church history lightly and out of hand and say ‘only the present matters’. The reason I’m hard on this point is because (as stated before) a lot of the same questions, supposedly new teachings and more that people THINK they’re coming up with…. are simply OLD MISTAKES that people (some believers, some not) came up with HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of years ago.

Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its’ mistakes. This holds true in EVERY area of human history, INCLUDING and especially church history.

One more dramatic example should suffice. In the early church, there was a heresy called adoptionism. This teaching was that God the Father annointed Jesus as Messiah and the Son of God at His baptism. That is, Jesus was born MERELY a man and NOT God-in flesh and ‘became’ God in flesh at His baptism when the Holy Spirit came upon Him and empowered Him. The Dakes’ Study Bible teaches this view as well. It was rightly condemned by the early church, since any child can read Matthew 1, Hebrews 1:6 and Luke 2:6-7 and see that Jesus was called both Messiah and Son of God from birth. Yet, Creflo Dollar has not only resurrected this teaching in his pulpit, but BOASTS that he KNOWS that folks might consider him unorthodox for teaching it, but he believes he’s right. (I have the full 45 mins of the sermon on disk at home – this clip is the first 29 minutes of it. If you love the truth, this clip will make you feel like urling.) Ol’ Clepto even DENIES that Jesus Christ was God at His birth. I’ve dealt with this in a recent blog entry on my site which you can read up on at a later time. Do a search on the page for ‘those who think this is a minor issue’ and read on.

Back to this thread.

Mellowone wrote:

Small Testimony with something i dealt with and will shed some light as to why I am responding in this post.

Numbers 12: 6 – 8 tells me that he speaks in dreams.! And HE confirmed that for me after a discussion I had with you about the same topic. After talking about that with you I was troubled and begain to question HIM about how he communicates. (I guess he saw that MY HEART WAS TROUBLED) I was in service and the message come from Numbers when Miriam basically made a fool out of herself for questioning Moses and why God speaks to Moses. (you see how God works, the same thign I was deepled troubled about, that is what the messag turned out to be) I was troubled that morning, but for some reason I was led to keep reading the scripture and that is when I came across Numbers 12: 6. I cried and cried and began to praise HIM. I felt so horrible that I…a little worthless sinner QUESTIONED and even began to doubt how the ALMIGHTY FATHER communicates to his people!

Tracey, take this in love, with an open and teachable heart and (most importantly) an open Bible. And I’m serious about the open Bible part. Category 5 175mph winds praying that a certain gulf stream steers Wilma away from your neck of the woods serious.

Okay ?

Okay.

In reference to your post above:

What you’ve just done is equate how God communicates with you to how God communicated with his OT prophets. That’s a BIG claim. So as soon as you have ONE dream you claim is from God that doesn’t match up with scripture, or one thing that you claim you got ‘confirmation’ that will come true that doesn’t , me and the folks at your local assembly can drag you outside the city limits of Miami and stone you, right ? (Deut. 13:1-10) I’m speaking facetiously.

This is the problem that a lot of folks who claim ‘God still speaks the same way He did in the OT’ have. The standard you’re comparing yourself to is TOO HIGH and the authority you’re claiming for YOUR INDIVIDUAL DREAMS is that they are ON THE SAME LEVEL AS SCRIPTURE. See, in the OT, God’s prophets wrote SCRIPTURE. They were His direct agents and representatives and spiritual leaders on earth – so much so, that even disrespecting them warranted death (2 Kings 2:23-24).

Again, I point you to 2 Timothy 3:14-17.

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:14-17, NKJV)

In verse 14, Paul tells Timothy to continue in the things which he has learned and been assured of, known from whom he has learned them. Verse 15 continues the thought, and that from childhood he (Timothy) has known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make him wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. The greek text here is quite interesting for several reasons.

1. The word for known is the word oida, which denotes a basic observation or well known fact. So from childhood, Timothy has been inundated with the scriptures as a basic fact and knows that they are able to make him wise to salvation. (hint: most of the NT wasn’t written yet… so Paul was primarily talking about the Old Testament and the few books that were NT canon at this time)

2. The word for ‘Holy’ here only appears twice in the entire greek NT – heiron – both times in mentioning things considered sacred to God. The normal NT word for ‘holy’ or ‘sanctified’ is hagios, which denotes something ‘set apart’. But this word speaks of the value of the thing it describes. In this case, 1 Corinthians 9:13 in reference to things concerning the temple worship and things offered to God (and remember – incorrect offerings = death in the OT) and this passage. Scripture isn’t just ‘set apart’ – its’ VALUED above what we would normally consider ‘holy’ including ‘the hagios ones’ (the saints….US…).

3. The word for ‘able’ is one of our favorite ‘power’ words dunamai. The scriptures are POWERFUL to make one wise to salvation. Not simply ‘inform with knowledge’, but actually effect what it commands. Just as Lazarus had no ‘free will’ to resist Jesus’ command to ‘come forth’ in John 11, God’s word (Isaiah 55:11) accomplishes what He sends it forth to do and never comes back void.

In verse 16, the word for ‘inspired by God’ is theopneustos. I’ll touch on this some more below, but it literally does mean ‘God-breathed’. Let’s talk context for a moment. What ‘all scripture’ is Paul speaking of here ? The same ‘Holy Scriptures’ he spoke of in v. 15. The same Holy (sacred, to be revered and respected) Scriptures that he just mentioned in v. 15 that Timothy has known from childhood. The same scriptures that are POWERFUL/ABLE to make one wise (greek word: sophidzo, carrying the connotation of understanding) to salvation.

In the rest of verse 16 we find that the God-breathed Holy Scriptures are profitable (greek word: ophelimos – same word used in Titus 3:8 speaking of good works being ‘profitable’ to men and in 1 Timothy 4:8 in regard to godliness being profitable) for the following areas:

doctrine – teaching and belief. Whatever you believe, needs to be drawn from not imposed upon the scriptures.

reproof – opposing false teaching. This is what Stephen did in Acts 6-7 – he used scripture for reproof. It is also what Jesus did in Matthew 4 when He said “It is written…” to the enemy of our souls.

correction – because sometimes believers make mistakes or believe things that are unbiblical. So scripture is ‘profitable’ for correcting erring believers, whether the issue is moral (i.e.- 1 Corinthians 5-6) or theological (i.e. – 2 John 9-11).

instruction in righteousness – simply put “how now shall we live ?” passages like Ephesians 4-5, Galatians 4-5, Romans 12-14 tell believers how they should live – in their personal lives and those outside of the church (Romans 12), in relation to the government (Romans 13:1-7) and in relation to other believers (Romans 14). Passages like Colossians 2:17-23 and Hebrews 3-4, for example, tell us that festivals, sabbaths and all of these OT practices were simply shadows and types – but their fulfillment and substance in found in Christ. So folks who claim to be believers who become legalistic about the Sabbath or try to ‘Judaize’ Christianity to make it look more Jewish aren’t doing anything but moving backwards. No real righteousness in these actions nor are they of any real use in restraining the flesh.

The next clause can be translated “In order that” or “so that” – so that what ?

So that the man of God may be COMPLETE (greek word: teleo – the root form of the same word Jesus said on the cross in John 19:30) and THOROUGHLY FURNISHED (exartidzo – completed, fully accomplished) for every good work.

Not just “some good works”, but every good work.

This is NOT said of anything else BUT the Word of God. The authority of the scriptures is well established in these verses. NOTHING else in scripture is put on the same level!!!! And it borders on BLASPHEMY to put anything else – including DREAMS on the same level!

I’ve taken time to exegete (draw out of) the text the intended meaning according to the meanings of the words in their original historical context to show you what type of view of the scriptures you should have as well as what scripture says it is useful for and how you should approach it. THIS is what I meant when I said you should get the same attitude that the writer of Psalm 119 has toward scripture.

I’d like to build on Kenny’s earlier post regarding interpretation, because some other key factors in interpretation were left off. The root of this problem is that of the principle of progressive revelation. Your misquotation and misapplication of Numbers 12 to your situation ignores this principle.

Before I go further, I need to give you (and everyone reading) three terms that will help with your interpretative matrix.

PROGRESSIVE REVELATION- God, in the process of human history, chooses to reveal Himself and communicate with His people on different levels (that is, reveal more of Himself and His plans for humanity as human history goes on), in different manners (directly, dreams, prophets, through the rule of judges, through the writings of apostles and most finally in Jesus Christ) and in various ways in accordance with His overall plan for His people throughout human history (for example, God, in giving Daniel the vision in regarding the last days in Daniel 11:36-12:13 is told in 12:9 to shut up the vision of this book and not to reveal it until the time of the end. The same vision is given to John in the book of Revelation and John is told that NOW is the time for the vision to be shown to all and proclaimed, not shut up. God revealed more as human history marched on).

Two very visible examples of progressive revelation are the doctrine of the Trinity and the name of God. We see bits and pieces of the Trinity in Gen. 1:2, 1:26, 3, and also in Gen. 9. We get a little more revelation on the ‘Us’ of Genesis 3 in Deut. 6:4 when we find out that God is a ‘plural one’ (in hebrew echad ) and not a ‘solitary one’ ( yachid ). We see Trinity as the consistent teaching of scripture unfolding more as the Old Testament history continues onward. In Isaiah 48:12-16, we see one of the clearest images of the Trinity (in my opinion, even clearer than some New Testament passages). In other words, God reveals more of Who He is as His dealings with humans continue in scripture. John 1:18 says that ‘No man has seen God at any time. God the One and Only, who is at the side of the Father, has made Him known.” (NIV) The fullest revelation of God to humanity in human history on earth to date is Jesus Christ. Yes, Moses talked ‘face to face’ with the preincarnate Christ (John 8:58/Exodus 3:14). Jacob wrestled with the ‘messenger of Yahweh’ and had a dislocated hip from the encounter…. along with a new name. Gideon met up with ‘the Commander of Yahweh’s Armies’… and worshiped Him. But instead of just a cameo, God revealed Himself in Christ more fully than these pop-up appearances in the Old Testament.

Got it ? Good.

SALVATION HISTORY – The process of salvation from start to finish in the life of the individual believer. An example of this would be the ordo salutis (order of salvation) found at Romans 8:28-30, John 6:37-45 and also at Ezekiel 36:26-27. God, not man, initiates salvation by changing the ‘God-hating, non-God-seeking, non-God-fearing’ (Romans 3:8-18) human being’s heart from a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. This is the ‘enabling’ that Jesus speaks of in 6:44, the ‘circumcision of the heart’ that Paul speaks of in Romans 2 and Moses speaks of in Deut. 30:6. God puts His Spirit in the individual and causes them to walk in His ways and obey His statues. This person hears the gospel and then believes. Our song ‘Amazing Grace’ has a wonderful verse – “T’was grace that taught my heart to fear” – and Newton drew these lyrics from when Jesus said “everyone who is taught by God comes to me” in John 6:45. Prior to this, the person is dead in sin and trespasses (Eph. 2:1) and children of wrath by nature. God gives the person a ‘faith NOT originating with themselves’ (Eph. 2:8) which is the gift of God. The sacrifice of Christ is applied to the person and they are declared just before God on the basis of faith in the death and resurrection of Christ apart from works (Romans 3:28-5:1). The person is daily sanctified (set apart) by God the Holy Spirit and eventually will be brought to full glorification, their body being changed from corruptible and mortal, to incorruptible and removed from the very presence of sin (1 John 3:2, 1 Cor. 15:58). This is what God does in the life of EVERY believer, in every age. Period.

Abraham believed God (Who appeared to Him in Genesis 12 and again in Genesis 18) and it was credited to him as righteousness. Romans chapter 4 shows that Abraham’s faith is the same type of faith we have (all of Romans 3:28-5:1). Jesus reminds the Pharisees that it was He who appeared to Abraham (John 8:50-58). Paul quotes an Old Testament passage in Romans 1:16-17 to remind us that the power of the gospel to salvation and the righteousness of God is revealed in the Old Testament as “The righteous shall live by his faith”. 1 Corinthians 10 tells us that the folks in the OT who passed through the Red Sea with Moses heard the same gospel and that the spiritual rock they drank from was Christ.

Point being, salvation history is the SAME in the Old and New Testaments. God had foreshadowings and signs in the levitcal priesthood – all of these things being a part of redemptive history and ultimately pointing to Christ – who fulfilled them all.

Hope you got it.

REDEMPTIVE HISTORY – The process of God’s corporate plan for the redemption of His people and how He deals with them throughout history. These are usual one-time historical events or limited to one particular period in history. For example, in the Old Testament in the book of 1 Samuel, we read of the Holy Spirit resting upon Saul and David and many other men – usually for the performance of some task relating to the kingdom (empowerment for service). We also read of the Holy Spirit departing from these men. Thus, in the OT era of redemptive history, David could pray (as he does in Psalm 51) for God not to take the Holy Spirit from Him. But the promise in the New Testament in John 14:26, Ephesians 4:30 and 2 Corinthians 5 is that God gives His Spirit as a downpayment of the redemption of the saints’ bodies in the coming age, to seal us until that day and to abide with us as another helper – FOREVER. In the New Testament era of redemptive history, there is no departing of the Holy Spirit. All believers are empowered for service, not just prophets and a few random kings here and there (as in the OT). This is discerned simply by reading the Bible in chronological order.

An example of this would be the Levitical preisthood. God doesn’t deal with His people through a physical temple anymore – now, our bodies are the temple of God (1 Cor. 6:15-20). We don’t do burnt or dead offerings as in the OT sacrifices, but instead the sacrifices we offer to God are the living sacrifices of our bodies (Romans 12:1). All of the OT sacrifices, symbols and such find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ. They ALL point to Him, from the lampstands to the golden censer to the holiest of holies to the mercy seat to the sacrifice placed on the mercy seat (and that’s a whole bunch we can get into later – but if you want a head start, read the book of Leviticus and THEN head to the book of Hebrews).

Another (and pertinent to our present discussion) example is Hebrews 1. The passage demonstrates this same principle (as well as the process of progressive revelation) when the writer says: Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Hebrews 1:1-2, ESV)

Notice the context and what the verses teach. God has, in past times and in various ways spoken to the anscestors by the prophets. But now in these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. What ‘last days’ ? The same ‘last days’ that Peter says were being fulfilled in Acts 2 when he quoted Joel 2:27-32 – the same ‘last days’ that began 2000+ years ago on the day of Pentecost and continue to the present day. The writer of Hebrews lived in the start of ‘these last days’. His letter was written after Jesus’ ascension and he goes on in the entire first chapter to speak on the superiority of Christ to angels (because Christ is God).

Let’s recap: in past times in various ways, God spoke to the fathers through the prophets. In these last days, He has spoken through His Son. Different ways at different times. Not ‘the same’ in all times.

To address some things Nathan wrote earlier:

In the process of redemptive history, you see God coming directly to folks (i.e.- the Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah), sending angels (i.e.- Daniel in Daniel 7 and 9), appearing in some solid form (i.e.- Abraham in Genesis 18:1). Does God still do these things ? The answer is no. God hasn’t and DOES NOT reveal things to individuals in the same fashion He did in the OT to the prophets. Three main reasons undergird this:

1. We (the church) ain’t an individual, theocratic nation under the direct rule of God. The church is multinational (as opposed to being composed of one folks from one country/nation), multi-ethinc (as opposed to being one ethnicity), multi-lingual (as opposed to sharing a common language like the Jews did).

2. Repeating myself a bit here…. you can’t claim the same manner and level of God speaking to OT prophets for your individual dreams that may or may not be from God. They are not authoratative in the same fashion as dreams from prophets in the OT (that is, they are not binding on the consciences of the people of God and disobeying them does not bring death or direct judgment from God in every instance).

3. If you do, know that from a historical standpoint, no orthodox believer or group of believers in history have claimed continuing revelation on the same level as scripture. Groups that have (like the Montanists of the 2nd Century) always go off and leave scripture behind in place of their revelation. They were condemned by the early church (rightly) as heretics. In the late fourth century, when Marcion and his gang popped up and stripped down the Bible from the 27 books we all grew to know and love to a few portions of Paul’s epistles and some scraps of the gospel, some regional councils (Carthage and Hippo) released identical lists to all the local churches of which books were canonical and which ones were not. Funny…. their list matched the same one proclaimed by Athanasius 50 years prior…… God’s people know God’s word. (more on this below). Even the Roman Catholic Church claims that there is no new revelation on the same level as scripture and as heretical as Rome is, at the Council of Trent (1545-1564) when they accepted the apocrypha *officially* and *infallibly* as part of the canon of scripture, they gave it a secondary status. Indeed, 1100 years before in 403 A.D. when Jerome translated the Bible into Latin (which became THE Bible for over 1000 years), he didn’t treat the apocrypha as scripture.

3a. An example drawn from our craft of music – if someone comes along and says correct posture and long tones are not necessary to produce a good sound on the instrument, what would you say to them ? That’s right – every director that has neglected these things or taught something else has always produced a band with bad sound. You can look back historically and see every good director stressing these things to their students. Well, similarly, if someone pops up with something that has been consistently condemned as heretical throughout church history, there’s a good chance that it’s still wrong. Montanus and his female prophetesses Priscilla and Maximillia who clamoured for ‘new revelation in addition to scripture’ consistently at the end of the 2nd century were condemned by the early church as heretical. And todays’ ‘Montanuses’ (see Benny Hinn clip above) are just as wrong as their 1900 year old anscestors.

You asked a few more questions earlier Nathan. Once again, church history and teaching provide the answer. I direct you to the London Baptist Confession of 1689 and Chapter 1 – On Holy Scripture:

1._ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.

( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

2._Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these:

OF THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Solomen, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations,Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi

OF THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, To Titus, To Philemon, The Epistle to the Hebrews, Epistle of James, The first and second Epistles of Peter, The first, second, and third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Jude, The Revelation

All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.

( 2 Timothy 3:16)

3._ The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings.

( Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2 )

4._ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.

( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )

5._We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)

6._The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

7._All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.

( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)

8._The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.

( Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16 )

9._The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.

( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)

10.____The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.

( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23)

I hope this answers your questions properly.

On interpretation, we don’t wait for some dream to drop out of heaven. Scripture interprets scripture – clearer passages revealed later in human history (i.e. – Acts 8 tells us that Isaiah 53 was speaking about Jesus or Hebrews 3-4 tell us that the Sabbath represented the rest that believers in Christ have entered into – therefore Col. 2:16-18….) show us how to properly interpret seemingly obscure passages in the Old Testament or other parts of scripture. If an interpretation of one passage clashes with something clearly taught in scripture elsewhere, the problem lies with the interpreter, not the scriptures.

The scriptures are self-authenticating. 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us they are theopnuestos – God-breathed. Sorry, but dreams and other things you mentioned earlier are not God-breathed. They don’t have the same source as scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21) – holy men of God writing as they were moved along by the Holy Spirit. So they DON’T carry the same level of authority. God doesn’t need human recognition to have authority as God. Neither do His words.

The principle of John 10:28 comes into play here (along with a host of other passages). Jesus’s sheep (believers) hear His voice and follow it. LBC1689 1:5 echoes this when it says that believers have full assurance of the Word of God because of the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us that the natural (unsaved) man considers the things of the Spirit (that includes the Word of God which He moved men to write down) foolishness.

Simple to understand.

I invite you to take time and study the scriptures they have cited in accordance with their exposition on what they claim the scriptures teach. If you have questions, feel free to ask.

View it in full online here:

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

What’s interesting to note is that at one time, EVERY Baptist church in existence held to the 1689. Early churches in America held to the New Hampshire confession – which acknowledged the 1689. As sound teaching declined, folks dropped the confessions and some denominations drifted off into heresy very easily.

Rabbit trailing off…..

Back to you, TraceFace

The problem with your misapplication of the Numbers passage is this – you’ve taken a narrative storyline and sought to make it do something it was not intended to do (teach that every believer gets spoken to in dreams the same way that God spoke to His prophets in the Old Testament). This is a very serious matter, dear. That’s why this post is so long. Jehovah’s Witnesses (as an extreme example) take Romans 6:7 (he who dies has been freed from sin) to teach that once a person physically dies, they are free from sin and it no longer counts against them (sorry, I’m too lazy to get up and get my copy of ‘You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth’ and tell you the exact page number). Now in context, is that what Romans 6:7 actually teaches ? NO! The ‘he who dies’ is the person who has become a believer in Christ – and the ‘death’ spoken of here is the death of Christ – the believer has died with Christ and therefore, has been freed from sin and declared just. And in the following verses, Paul continues the analogy, telling believers that just as Christ was raised from the dead and death has no more control over Him, we too have been raised to live in newness of life, with sin no longer being our master.

This was an example. But folks all over the place, all over TBN and a host of other places consistently do things like this – take a simply story and try to make it be a consistent teaching of scripture instead of simply ‘this is what happened in the story’. Folks do this with Israel marching around Jericho and give it a ‘spiritual’ application to God knocking down the ‘Jericho Walls’ in their lives if they follow some daily confession formula…. and that’s NOT what the text teaches!

This goes back to the stuff Kenny talked about previously – scripture must be interpreted in context. Was the Numbers passage meant to teach about dreams or simply be a historical account ? And while some historical passages do teach, is this a consistent teaching throughout ALL of scripture in light of the rest of what scripture teaches ? Remember Hebrews 1.

And no Tracey, this won’t chase any true believers in Christ away. It is God the Father who draws them TO Christ in the first place – and if they are Christs’, they are kept eternally secure in His hand (John 10:28-29). Those whom God the Father has chosen for salvation WILL (100% guarantee) come to Him without fail (John 6:37-40) and Christ raise them up on the last day. So I have no fear of speaking the deep truths of scripture – Christ’s sheep will hear and obey because the power that saves them is God the Holy Spirit – not any ‘forseen faith’ or ‘man-generated’ faith.

I know you have a concern for visible unity in the Body of Christ and what type of impression discussions of this sort leave with folks. While that’s important, UNITY does not mean brushing our differences under the rug – in private or in public. I’m actually in the midst of a series on this very topic (took a break to write about the hurricane). I’ll be posting part II on the topic shortly.

One comment you made really concerned me and since you made it publicly, I need to address it publicly.

And just because you seem to know alot, doesnt mean you have to beat me down with the knowledge YOU aquired.

What, do you want me to say? OK Kerry, fine you win. You always win. Does that make you feel good? If it does, mission acomplished! You once again drove something home no matter who got hurt in the process. Boy you beat it down this time halloffame.gif More props to you. Yup, mass carnage all around. But look at the crowd around you. While the servants in the body got took out the game, The people (the world really) are not looking at the people on the ground, they are looking at you, with the bible in your hand.

Tracey, it’s not a matter of ‘beat downs’. If that’s what you think this is about, you need to humble yourself, re-orient your attitude from being emotion-led and experience-led and re-read everything I’ve posted. I’m not saying you are, but folks who are prideful and despise any type of correction usually ‘turn the tables’ and claim attack. If you truly are born from above, you shouldn’t have a problem with talking about what the Word of God teaches and seeking to bring your life (which includes what you believe) in line with His word. The same Spirit of God who gives believers the faith to believe in Christ is also the same One who moved holy men of God to write His Word. Like things like things from like things.

It’s about 1 Tim. 2:5 – rightly dividing the Word of truth.

You’ve spent a lot of time talking about your testimony, what you think was confirmation from God and much more, but you haven’t taken time to deal with the scriptures that teach differently from what you believe. NONE of these things are the final, unerring, infallible authority for the believer. And for you to make statements like ‘throwing scripture around’ shows a very cavalier attitude toward the perfect and Holy Word of God.

I know we’re working from two different paradigms as far as the authority of the scriptures is concerned. We’ve had this convo before on here and I pointed you to Psalm 119 and said that you need to develop the same attitude toward scripture that the Psalmist has. I keep pointing you to 2 Tim. 3:14-17 because it is one of the bedrock texts that defines the authority of the scriptues in the life of the believer. I pray that you’ll stop skipping by it and take it seriously over and against your experience.

As a certain rapper *snicker* wrote a few months ago….

You’re a Christian ? Then live it out consistently/

You got a Bible, but you deny it’s sufficiency/

relying more on subjective experience for your daily guidance/

and when it contradicts the scriptures, you remain in defiance!/

Instead you to humble yourself, your understanding is flawed/

submit yourself to the Word of God/

Let it refine your mind properly, keep thinkin’ on it constantly/

refuse to let yourself conform to the world’s philosophy/

the Word is not your property to play and misuse, misquote and abuse/

revere it cuz it carries God’s authority/

The scriptures are not like pottery.

I’m not trying to ‘beat you down’, but I am seriously trying to drive a point home and I’m PRAYING that you take this post with an open heart and SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES. Yes, I know there’s a lot of “proof texting” that folks get into.

But “proof texting” and legitimate exegesis of the scriptures are two different things.

Do not be so quick to eschew formal training on how to handle the Word of God and speak down about “knowledge acquired”.

Paul wasn’t called to preach out of thin air – He was trained formally by the greatest rabbi of the Sanhedrin at the time, so his citations of the Old Testament from memory were a result of years of study. The illumination that the Holy Spirit gave him once he became a believer simply drew on the many years of studies in the scriptures that he’d already had. The first martyr for the Christian faith – Stephen – was “mighty in the scriptures”. God didn’t just ‘drop a bible on his head’. He studied. And when he quoted the Old Testament to the Pharisees to show them their consistent unbelief in Acts 6-7, he was completely on point with it. He rightly handled the Word of God. Mind you, he got stoned for it, but God got the glory, those who stoned him now face God’s wrath (assuming they never turned to Christ) and our brother Stephen now rests with the Lord. :angel:

If I didn’t love you, I wouldn’t have taken the time to type this. I have grades due this weekend and many more things I could’ve spent my time doing. I hope you understand this. But it breaks my heart to see you (and anyone) treat God’s Word with any less respect and reverence and authority than it deserves.

That’s a huge part of why I left my old church.

Married folk would be quick to say “you can’t talk about my wife like that.” Yet we treat God’s word with less respect.

Think about it.

ALL OF THESE THINGS SAID…..

Here’s a story from my pastor. He was an eyewitness to this, so I trust his testimony.

He worked for a while with Wycliffe Bible Translators. For those who are unfamiliar with them, they translate the Bible into new languages for unreached people groups.

He was with them when they had just translated the Bible into a local African language for a small village of muslims who were kinda ‘off on their own’. A few days before the translators arrived with the hundreds of new Bibles, the whole village had the same dream one night – the dream was that someone appeared to them and told them that they should put their Qu’rans away and accept the new Book coming to them and all that it teaches as true. There are now several churches in that region.

I’m careful not to say ‘God can’t do….’ simply because out of reverence and respect for the Omnipotent One, I ain’t gonna ascribe to Him more than He’s done. I can say confidently that God ain’t gonna sin, God ain’t gonna be unfair on judgment day, God ain’t gonna leave ONE sin unpunished and God ain’t gonna give any supposed ‘revelation’ that contradicts His word. Why ? Because God is a God of order and won’t do anything to contradict His word.

That said, I have no problem believing the dream was an angel from God. There are plenty of folks who go off into a ‘dead orthodoxy’ without realizing that the Spirit of God is dynamically active in the lives of every believer. Even the framers of the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession of Faith recognized the role of the Spirit in illumination (God bringing the clearness of the meaning of the text through to the believer over time and enabling them to rightly interpret it the more they study it – 1 Cor. 2:14).

Some well-meaning believers sometimes confuse illumination with revelation and call it a ‘rhema word of knowledge’ or something along those lines. 😆 Others actually think they’re getting some REAL ‘new revelation’.

To God alone be the Glory. I hope I’ve edified without being too harsh and I hope hearts have been open.

Legit discussion and enlightenment is what I seek. If you have an objection, let’s go through ALL of what the scriptures teach on a subject (not just one or two passages) and work toward conforming our beliefs there. While it’s possible I could be wrong, unless you convince me from the scriptures, as Martin Luther has said, my conscience is held captive by the Word of God. Here I stand – I can do nothing else. God help me.